Punting Competition
by JustmyOp on Aug 12, 2011 7:48 AM MDT
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PrintIf you were reading practice reports for the last week, you might draw one conclusion from the punter competition as to who the leader was ...
- From what I could tell, Grossnickle and O'Neill punted better this morning. So good chance Brundage will be cut from the competition.
- Sophomore Zach Grossnickle and freshman walk-on Darragh O'Neill appeared to out-punt Mark Brundage, a walk-on transfer from Rice, during the competition. If the competition for punter was based solely on today, he would win the job easily.
- grossnickel then boomed all of his punts. Distance, height, spiral, turning the punt over. He was by far the best. He has a freakin leg.
- I have been paying careful attention to the punting competition throughout camp, and it seemed clear to me that Grossnickle was consistently better than the other two. He averaged a better hang time4.5 to 4.6 seconds compared with 4.1 to 4.3 and he was usually longer.
- Grossnickle's punts were averaging about 4.6 seconds of hang time, versus 4.1 for O'Neill and Brundage.
But if you depended on first-hand practice reports to predict a final two punters, you'd be wrong.
According to the official CUBuffs.com website, Embree decided to "go with a gut feeling" and named newcomers Darragh O'Neill and Mark Brundage the finalists for the starting position. Brundage played a half-season at Rice with pretty decent stats; O'Neill has never played football.
The last time a head coach said something similar about kicking, it was "he who shall not be named" stating that he just had a "gut feelling" that Goodman would have a good day.
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Buckle your seat belts - this ride ain't over yet
either reported incorrectly last night, or Embree changed his mind, but there’s an update, and now Brundage is out.
Kyle Ringo Tweets
http://twitter.com/#!/kyleringo
From last night:
@KyleRingo
Kyle Ringo Tilt. Reset. Colorado punting competition down to Darragh O’Neill and Mark Brundage. Zach Grossnickle is the odd man out.
Kyle Ringo Tweet this morning:
@KyleRingo
Kyle Ringo After reviewing film last night, CU coaches have decided Darragh O’Neill and Zach Grossnickle are the finalists for the punting job.
We’ll see if it changes again at Saturday’s scrimmage.
It definitely wasn't reported incorrectly
I listened to the audio from Embree’s press avail after the afternoon practice. He said it was Brundage and O’Neill.
Look, I've already told Utah to suck it. There's no going back now.
yeah, I watched a video of that interview and he definitely implied that Grossnickle was the worst
maybe he doesn’t know their names? haha, who knows, all I care about is that the best punter is the one punting on saturdays, but this “finalists/contest/starter” stuff with the kickers is getting just a tad silly.
my problem is that he seemed to cut one just because he said he was going to. I understand the desire to name a #1 as soon as you can, but if you don’t have a #1, don’t name one just to name one. There’s nothing wrong with saying, “I wanted to eliminate a guy today, but there just hasn’t been any separation, so the competition continues at full throttle.” Christ, we’re 3 weeks out and it’s a damn punter. Nothing about the scheme changes depending on who’s in there. Just kick the damn ball.
Look, I've already told Utah to suck it. There's no going back now.
another Update from CUBuffs.com
August 12, 2011
BUFF BITS: The punting situation took another twist Friday with incumbent Zach Grossnickle working his way back into the two-man competition that coach Jon Embree expects could be decided by the middle of next week. Grossnickle kicked well enough in a lengthy morning practice that focused on special teams to move ahead of transfer Mark Brundage. Now, Embree says CU’s punter will be either walk-on Darragh O’Neill or Grossnickle…
Is he trying to see who is mentally tough? You’re in, no, you are. Wait, you punt, no … you!
I think there just hasn’t been any separation. That’s what Embree said yesterday. Which made it odd that he eliminated someone. Frankly, it sucks that our scholarship punter can’t separate himself from a guy who’s never played football and a walk on from Rice, but it is what it is. I simply don’t understand the urgency to name a #1. Three more weeks, people, and this isn’t the QB we’re talking about. When a guy grabs the role- that’s the time to name a #1. Everything I’ve read suggests that Grossnickle has the best leg but shanks some. Give him the damn job and let him kick his way out of it. If our season comes down to the punter, then we’re already screwed.
Look, I've already told Utah to suck it. There's no going back now.
K/P notes from the scrimmage:
“official” KICKING GAME UPDATE: The punting field has been reduced to walk-on Darragh O’Neill and incumbent Zach Grossnickle, and Embree said Saturday’s work wasn’t telling enough for a winner to emerge.
“Those guys have to keep competing and I have to put more pressure on them., put them in more situations,” he said.
Embree stressed the value of good hang time, given the nature of the spread punt formation. “If you get good hang time, you’re just not going to get that much good return yardage,” he said. “I just want a guy who can kick it 40 yards and make the (returner) fair catch it. I don’t need Superman; it would be great if we could get him, but let’s just start there and build off of that.”
Freshman Will Oliver was named the starting placekicker earlier in the week, but Embree said both Oliver and sophomore Justin Castor kicked well Saturday. By Embree’s quick count, Oliver had one missed field goal, Castor two.
He encouraged Castor to continue “doing what he’s doing. Between the two of them we can have two good kickers,” noting Castor could be the team’s long-range placekicker. “That could be his role, along with kickoffs. He still has an important role. And (Oliver) still has to go; we’re just one week in.”
The ability of Embree to reconsider a possibly hasty decision shows he’s learning how to be a head coach. Personnel decisions should not be made in an interview situation, but thoughtfully and purposefully with the input of your position coach, and after watching tape.
From my own eyeballs, Castor seems to have the stronger leg for distance placekicking and kickoffs, but Will Oliver has great technique and accuracy at the shorter distances. Embree indicated he may keep both guys in the mix, and use for different situations.
Since Embree is now focused on punting hangtime, Grossnickle would have been the winner at the scrimmage, although with just 2 punts to O’Neil’s 3 punts, neither had enough action to really show consistency.
FWIW, O’Neil’s first two punts were nearly identical, about 35-40 yards distance with a hangtime of 4.1 seconds. Grossnickle beat him slightly with a 44-yard punt with a 4.3 hang, and his second one was a high boomer with over a 4.4 hang which was uncatchable, and rolled to the 3-yard line. Nice. (Hang numbers courtesy the guy standing next to me with a stopwatch, so that’s all I have to go on.) There were a few comments like “now that’s a punt” from the crowd on Gross’ second punt, but it was pretty quiet during all the punting, as though everyone was holding their breath.
O’Neil got a third punt opp late in the scrimmage, but it was situational – meant to be short and not go in the endzone. It landed around the 18 yard line, so respectable accuracy, but low-average hangtime. Time ran out before Gross got another chance to punt, or Embree had seen what he needed to see.
The guys near me made an interesting comment that it’s one thing to have never played football (O’Neil) but another strike is that he’s never watched it either, as he is a native of Ireland. The hard-core football guys said there are too many intricacies to the game that you can’t pick up from reading a book or a couple meetings – when something goes wrong, he won’t have an idea in the back of his head about what a punter can or can’t do in any situation.
If he and Gross are thisclose in performance numbers (with slight advantage to the returning starter who was better at both distance and hangtime), it would be smarter to redshirt O’Neil and have him watch a lot of tape. For example, if he’s punting in the endzone and there’s a bad snap, if he puts his knee down to grab the ball, it’s a safety. Would he know that? (That happened last year, and Gross did manage to get a rugby off without touching his knee down.) There’s just a lot to learn if you haven’t watched football all your life.
The competition continues this week, with Mark Brundage still working to regain a spot in the top two, but O’Neill and Grossnickle seemingly pulling away. However, anything can happen, since Embree has changed his mind several times in the past week.
you raise an interesting point about O'Neill's lack of football knowledge
Can he tackle? At some point, he’s going to need to. And we know that Hawkins would be crucified for this stuff.
Look, I've already told Utah to suck it. There's no going back now.
by Phil Fraser on Aug 14, 2011 11:28 AM MDT up reply actions
Still in the honeymoon phase with Embree
And we know that Hawkins would be crucified for this stuff.
Eventually, folks will be calling our new coach out, too, unless he pulls off some damn miracles on the field.
I think Embree has a lot of things going for him that Hawkins did not
Embree is an alum and has former players and most fans in his corner. Most understand that Embree has been handed a work in progress. We can argue whether or not the program is in better position in the current transition or, the Barnett/ Hawkins transition but ask anyone who only partially pays attention to CU and they’ll tell you flat out “CU sucks”. 5 years ago people weren’t calling out our program as a whole just the Texas game, which by the way was embarrassing but he we were playing for the Big 12 championship. This will buy Embree some patience where Hawkins, coming off his imaginary success at Boise St, was greeted with somewhat higher expectations. In the end Embree is a much more likeable guy.
Kyle Ringo is already gushing about how great Embo and his approach are, which is important because the media has a big part in turning the tide on coaches. Towards the end of Hawkins tenure the media couldn’t stand Hawkins.
The bar is pretty low right now for Embree, heck if he wins 1 road game he slays a demon that’s been hanging around since 2007.
Shoulder to Shoulder
I agree on your appraisal
of where we are today and how it compares to 5 years ago. I did reply to Ringo’s article with a concern that I have. I am afraid that Embree has the potential of going “Pellini” on the sidelines when mistakes are made. Does anyone else feel it? If not, that is great.
by Roaring Fork Buff on Aug 15, 2011 2:44 PM MDT reply actions
Funny you mention that
Embree was qouted in the Camera today as lettgin his staff know that durring live situations the staff will begin to hold back and allow players to take over as vocal leaders.
The new CU coaching staff has gained a reputation for being vocal and direct with players in practice, but Embree said he tried to hold back a bit Monday during live situations.
“There were plenty of times today I probably normally would have had a little different reaction,” Embree said. “But I just wanted to see if we were going to have some players saying some stuff and start taking it. We’re on the sidelines on game day, so they’ve got to be able to learn how to lead out there on the field and get after each other in the right way when things aren’t going as they should be.”
I think Embree has a lot of passion, no doubt but I wouldn’t be concerned about any lack of control when it comes to his emotions. Bieniemy might be the more likely candidate for a mental breakdown on the sideline but he’s going to be up in the box so no worries there.
Shoulder to Shoulder
Thanks for the reply.
I also thought Bieniemy would be more emotional, but knew he could only yell into a headset. I am again impressed that Embree perhaps sees this trait in himself, and is already dealing with it. I was not a psych major, what do I know.
by Roaring Fork Buff on Aug 15, 2011 5:39 PM MDT reply actions
Slight Edge Today to Veteran
Camera: http://www.buffzone.com/ci_18692206
Punt-off
Punters Zach Grossnickle and Darragh O’Neill both had their moments in the morning practice as they continue to battle for the starting job.
Grossnickle, the returning starter, boomed a couple of kicks that were in the 45 to 50-yard range.
Embree said neither has distinguished himself yet.
“But they both did well (today),” the coach said. “Grossnickle I think is a little bit ahead, just because he’s been a little more consistent. But that’s not saying much. We’ve got to be way better.”
Denver Post blog:http://blogs.denverpost.com/colleges/2011/08/16/flu-bug-hitting-colorado/19710/
* Incumbent Zach Grossnickle has moved slightly ahead of freshman Darragh O’Neill in the punting race. Rice-transfer Mark Brundage seems like the odd man out.
"Grossnickle is just a little bit ahead just because he’s been a little more consistent," Embree said. "But that’s not saying much. We have to be way better."
I know it seems stupid to have a punter controversy but I love it
Considering how awful our kicking game was last year this is an aspect of the team that needs extra attention. The defense was put in awful situations because some of the worst punts I’ve seen in D 1 football.
Good for Embree for acknowledging the deficiency and addressing it.
Shoulder to Shoulder
When they say kicks of 45-50 yards
Are the counting the yards from where the guy is standing after he kicks it or from where the LOS is?
45-50 yards from where he is standing is pretty poor so I hope it is measured from 15 yards ahead of him at the LOS.
12 PAC - Sh*t runs downhill
by huckthefuskers on Aug 16, 2011 5:40 PM MDT up reply actions
I'm SURE they mean from the line of scrimmage
which is how punt distance has been quantified since the beginning of time
You do bring up an interesting point though, maybe when they’ve been saying in the paper that “Oliver made a 40 yard kick” they actually mean the kick landed in the endzone but it would of been good if Oliver was 40 yards away from the goal posts when his foot hit the ball! haha, just giving you a hard time!
Thanks for the update.
If they’re even, you have to give it to the person who has been in the heat of battle before, not a first time football player. Getting someone big and fast rushing at you in a full stadium can’t be replicated in a practice. Looks like our best opportunity for improvement is giving someone a second chance, at least at the start of the season.
by Roaring Fork Buff on Aug 16, 2011 2:38 PM MDT reply actions
and today, the competition was not even close
Roaring Fork Buff: If they’re even, you have to give it to the person who has been in the heat of battle before, not a first time football player. Getting someone big and fast rushing at you in a full stadium can’t be replicated in a practice. Looks like our best opportunity for improvement is giving someone a second chance, at least at the start of the season.
Grossnickle has been steady for the last couple days, but today (thursday a.m.) there was no contest. (Only he and O’Neill punted, and from watching today, I’d sit O’Neill on the bench and put Brundage back in. It was not O’Neill’s day - shanks and short punts every time.) Brundage is still punting on the practice field with the other guys, and he was having a great day, too bad the coaches weren’t watching in their direction.
Two GNickle highlights (both with a rush): one was a punt that went over 50 yards with a 4.95 hangtime, (stopwatch courtesy some guy in the shade timing all the punts and kicks, who whistled to himself when he timed it, and I had to ask.) He put it in perspective: A 5-second hangtime is the holy grail of punting in the pros and we have a punter who is darn close to hitting it.
The second highlight was the way he recovered after a bad snap that skidded on the ground in front of him like the snapper (freshman Keegan Lamar) was skipping a rock on a lake. Grossnickle calmly scooped it up off the ground, took one step and hit a 43-yard rugby punt without missing a beat. THAT is game experience, and Embree was clearly pleased that the punter finished the play strongly, despite a botched snap.
done
There’s no shame in Darragh redshirting this year and actually, you know, learning how to play football. Use Brundage as the backup, and clear another year between Grossnickle and O’Neill.
Look, I've already told Utah to suck it. There's no going back now.
BDC - Still no Special Teams Resolution
but we are apparently a little closer to knowing who will face the Rainbow Warriors. Nice timing for Grossnickle to get a 54-yard punt off as the last image of the day for Embree to ponder.
Special Teams Take Center Stage at Scrimmage
O’Neill and incumbent Zach Grossnickle each punted seven times on Folsom Field with the job up for grabs, but amazingly the difference in their net yardage was only one yard.
"One was ahead on yardage, one was a little bit ahead on hang time," CU head coach Jon Embree said. "So I’ve got to see all the numbers added up. But I told them this is their last kick, so make it count. Grossnickle had the better last kick so we’ll see if that’s enough."
Six of O’Neill’s attempts were between 43 and 47 yards. Grossnickle had punts of 37 and 38 yards but closed the scrimmage with a 54-yard effort. Embree will announce the winner on Monday when a new depth chart is released.
Stephane Nembot (90) keeps Keenan Canty away from the punter, Zach Grossnickle on Friday.
For more photos and videos from Friday, go to http://www.dailycamera.com
Cliff Grassmick / August 19, 2011
Per Twitter O'Neill will be the starter
Darraghneill90 Darragh o’neill
by adamcm777
got that starting job!! Can’t wait for Hawaii in 12 days.. #unreal
Shoulder to Shoulder
yikes
hopefully he watches a lot of games on tv between now and hawaii. Good luck to him
by nebraskasux on Aug 22, 2011 10:53 AM MDT up reply actions
Good
Grossnickle looked to me as a guy who seems to shank in games when the pressure is on.
12 PAC - Sh*t runs downhill
by huckthefuskers on Aug 22, 2011 12:44 PM MDT up reply actions
wow - there's a surprise
didn’t see that coming.
Best of luck to Darragh. Never forget that Brundage and Grossnickle are right behind you.
Grossnickle’s game stats were actually good for a freshman, according to Cubuffs.com
2010 (Fr.-RS)-He became just the fourth player in CU history to serve as the team’s regular punter as a freshman, joining Stan Koleski (‘73), Andy Mitchell (’94) and Matt DiLallo (’06); his 60 punts the most ever by a Buff frosh. He averaged 39.5 yards per punt (second best freshman figure at CU), with a net of 35.7. He placed 11 kicks inside the opponent 20 (six inside-the-10 and three inside-the-50, with 22 balls fair caught and just two that went for touchbacks; just 23 kicks were returned for an 8.0 average. He averaged 41.4 yards on 17 punts from inside the CU 25, with his long punt being 52 yards (he had two 50-plus).
Congrats Darragh
High and long in Honolulu.
by Roaring Fork Buff on Aug 22, 2011 7:11 PM MDT reply actions
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