[Now with Summary]: carp's Pac-12 expansion proposal
by carp on Oct 29, 2008 10:22 AM MDT
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PrintMy previous FanPost here at The Ralphie Report introduced the topic of the Pac-10 expanding to include Colorado and Utah.
I posted this proposal over at Cal Golden Blogs originally (among others). Be sure to vote here in this poll if you are a Colorado fan!
A decision of this magnitude needs input from other Pac-10 teams so I’ll post similar things at the schools that have entered the 21st century and have SBN blogs (I’m looking at you ‘furd!). This includes ATQ, Conquest Chronicles, House of Sparky, Bruisnation, Building the Damn, UW Dawg Pound, and CougCenter, as well as Block U and The Ralphie Report. I also e-mailed Dr. Saturday (formerly SMQ), Ted Miller, and Jon Wilner to get their input.
All comments, FanPosts, and FanShots are the views of the reader-authors who create them.
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don't be afraid to vote!
We don’t need the Bradley Effect!
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
carp, I finally took some time to read your proposal and I also read the responses on the Pac-10 blogs
and to be totally honest I would be against CU leaving the big 12. There are a lot of fine schools and interesting teams in the Pac-10 (and CU plays Pac-10 teams quite often and has upcoming games with Oregon and Cal) but I don’t think CU would do it and I for one think CU CAN compete in the Big 12. I think having Utah and BYU go over would make the most sense. One thing that really got on my nerves reading the Pac-10 blogs was quite a few people’s opinion that CU shouldn’t be allowed in the Pac-10 because they don’t fit the academic standards (two of the comments I remember came from OSU and ASU fans, uh, hello?) That is just absurd. I know that the Pac-10 has 3 incredible school in Stanford, Cal, and UCLA, and Washington is damn good too, but I think you could rank CU ahead of every other Pac-10 school plus Utah and BYU and not get much argument from people that really know what they’re talking about. Some OSU guy said something about “needing to be a serious research university” or something. CU is a HUGE research university (consistenly #1 in NASA funding).
Talk trash about our basketball or that we’re too far away, but to bring up academics is insane. Let your Pac-10 buddies know the truth! :-)
by nebraskasux on Oct 30, 2008 11:48 AM MDT up reply actions
NEsux
Thanks for taking the time to read the proposal and making an informed decision. I hope a few boobs didn’t cause your opinion to go to “no.”
I agree emphatically with your point on academics and Colorado. Frankly, I’m shocked that Pac-10 bloggers didn’t realize that as well. I’m in the academic world professionally and I view CU as a school that competes with (and is awarded) grants from places like the NIH, NSF, and NASA, as you say. I think most people realize that in the Pac-10 (especially the good universities), but it only takes a few boobs on the internet…
A lot of bloggers did like the BYU/Utah combo. I think this effort needs CU though for “sex appeal” and for the power of the current Big12 S and SEC to shift elsewhere.
Air Force, Utah, BYU have fielded good hoops teams, I think with the right coach/program the Buffs could compete in hoops too. I’m not sure about bringing Ralphie into the gym though.
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
yeah, I saw you stick up for CU's academics earlier on one of the other blogs (forget which one)
so thanks. I just had to defend my school a little bit :-) I agree that CU would bring “sex appeal” to the proposal, and despite what the “internet boobs” say the Pac-10 would love to have CU. You are right that CU and Utah have a little bit of a history but not enough for most people to care. Every school in the Pac-10 outside of California has a big instate rival (UA/ASU, OU/OSU, UW/WSU), Utah and BYU would fit better because of that I think. Let me ask you, did you ever think about CSU at all? I don’t want to do what the CU bashers were doing and say anything bad about CSU academically. They aren’t great, but still pretty good and would at least compare well with the other “state” schools (OSU, ASU, WSU) in the Pac-10. Then you could add all 4 and have the Pac-14 and everybody would have a big-time rival in conference.
That might be a little much though… Stupid idea, I take it back :-)
NESux
Questioning a good school’s academic rep is the equivalent of a cheap cut block.
I think people “overblow” our rivalries. Hell, the big game hasn’t been relevant for both teams since…I don’t know when. They’re fun for alums but they aren’t great rivalries in the national perspective. The Apple Cup and Civil War have been fun in the past too. I think CU-Nebraska might be the best rivalry out of all of the Pac-12 teams. Does that have a weird name so I can sound informed?
This proposal would allow for enough OOC games so CU could still be CSU and Nebraska if they wanted too…it just wouldn’t be a league game. Losses are still critical!
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
CU-NU rivalry doesn't have a name
and while I (and most CU fans) consider it a huge rivalry I’m not even positive that NU would be willing to play us every year (or ever for that matter) if we weren’t in the same conference. NU loves for their non-conference games to be against lousy teams and at their own stadium (as they sell out regardless). That would be a total deal-breaker for me if we didn’t play the Huskers anymore.
They probably consider OU to still be their main rival even though they don’t play every year anymore. A lot of their fans don’t consider us “worthy” of being their rival because they dominated us for so long. However, I know for a fact that a lot of them DO consider us a rival and hate the Buffs, but not many of them would admit it.
I want to emphasize
That on our blog more OSU fans stood up for Colorado academics than the one who put it down. I realize that this can be offending nevertheless, but so can be the implication that “Pac-10 bloggers didn’t realize that as well,” which implies that we all stated that view. I for one cited evidence to show how misinformed that view was.
-RVM
thanks, rvm
But it wasn’t just OSU fans and I was alarmed at…their lack of knowledge on this subject.
I didn’t mean nor imply that all Pac-10 bloggers felt that way.
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
Oh, I totally understand the alarm and knee-jerk
It took me back too when I read that on the OSU blog, just wanted to bring it up because that view was questioned pretty well by others when it came up. And was not a view held by of everyone.
Now about Big 12 football…just kidding (well, sort-of)! :)
Actually, it should be an interesting and fun weekend for you guys with the games coming up.
-RVM
I'm sure this won't surprise anyone here based on the other thread and my discussion...
but I voted no.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
As did I, per previous discussion. Although I like the rivalry, home/home game with some pac-10 schools idea and am way behind that, or in a basketball sense setting up one of those preseason tourneys with CU and UCLA or Cal or someone.
The Big12 and Pac10 have begun a bball challenge
similar to the ACC/Big10 challenge…it started last year I believe…
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Ah good call
Yea I have a harder time following Big 12 basketball over football, especially as I was in Chicago last year (all Big 10 stuff)
I hear you there...
I grew up on the Illinois/Missouri Border…really more KU/MU fans than anything and all we ever got was Big10 on regional coverage.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Also voted no
though I have yet to make any argument for or against it. I’ll just say I hate change and stop at that (except for the BCS. Do hate).
by A.J. Haefele on Oct 29, 2008 5:13 PM MDT up reply actions
Not going to vote as I'm a Missouri fan
but, I’d hate to see the Big 8 get broken up. If you guys went Pac-10, I’d have to pray that Missouri could get an invite to the Big 10+1, because the B12 would fall apart.
I’m curious. Every now and then, moving to the Big 10 comes up for discussion among Tiger fans, and there’s mixed reactions. I am reasonably certain that if it was still the Big 8, our fans would be overwhelmingly against any change.
Those of who in favor of this move, would you still be in favor of it if the Big 12 had never been formed? Is any lack of “loyalty” to the old Big 8 due to the fact that you were one of the last members (Big 6 + Colorado = Big 7 + Okie St. = Big 8 – As I’m sure most of you know)?
I juggle one handed, do some magic tricks and do the best imitation of myself.
Ben Folds Five
Even as a Jayhawk fan...
I would hate to see Missouri to the Big10…besides they wouldn’t know what to do with an exciting football team in that conference.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
To me I think it makes sense the Missouri would be in the Big 10 if we went to the Pac-10
As far as loyality, I really could care less, there really isn’t any long established rivalry except with Nebraska, which we embrace, but Nebraska seems to not see it, they see their rival as Oklahoma. So I could care less if we kissed the Big 8/Big 12 good bye in a few years. Once again I think there are a lot more good reasons to leave versus staying. And if we knocked the likes of Nebraska and Texas and Oklahoma down with us and Missouri leaving, so much the better.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
I also think how you sell Colorado is stating the the conference Championship will be in Denver Every four years
I would see rotating the conference Championship game between LA, Phoenix, Seattle, and Denver, maybe NorCal but I really don’t like either stadium there. One of my biggest griefs with the Big 12 is they never have their championship game or tournament games in Denver. I would also see a rotating basketball tournement between LA, Oakland, Portland, Salt Lake City, Seattle, and Denver, all have NBA arenas and would be great for basketball.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
You'd be hard pressed to have...
that extensive of a rotation for any championship or tournament games…Denver wouldn’t make a lot of sense for any Pac10 events for the Same reason it doesn’t for the Big12…Colorado, like the rest of the Mountain Time Zone is just kind of on an island.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
Denver championships
The problem would be the same for either conference. If the championship game was between Texas and Mizzou (or USC and Oregon), they might not be able to fill the seats in Denver. It could end up being like the Virginia Tech v. Boston College championship in Jacksonville last year in the ACC where they had trouble selling seats.
I think people would travel to Denver, big city, other things to do, that makes for a easier sell.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
You know that, I know that, people around Colorado know that but...
do the folks from the OC have any interest in Denver…often not…I have worked in two industries where I regularly attend trade shows and while I don’t fully understand it…people don’t look forward to Denver.
Some people are like Slinkies...not really good for anything but they make you smile when pushed down the stairs.
You may be right, but I think there is this belief that Denver is snowed in all the time
They just need to advertise a little more and say look, most of the time in the Winter, Denver is in the high 50’s and clear with no snow, you can enjoy your time and walk around and do things, but I think most people think the weather is like Minnesota or North Dakota.
"Me fail english, that unpossible" - Ralph Wiggum
Disagree to an extent
I think most people think of Denver as a nice destination, but it’s difficult to get to. A lot of people don’t like to go that far for the CCG because their team will likely be playing a great bowl game in places like Miami or Pasedena.
I don’t think that a CCG in Denver would be almost empty, but I do think it would be more difficult to get a giant crowd of fans for a Kansas-Texas Tech CCG in Denver than it would in either KC or Dallas. If there was another school in either conference located closer to Denver besides CU, it would make it a lot easier to host events there.
For the record, I love Denver and have been to many Rockies games there and always enjoyed myself. Great fans, even if there were never that many.
Texas fan's opinion
I am a Texas alum and a huge fan, but I follow the Buffs because my girlfriend is a CU alum (had many a good weekend up in Boulder – great town). I would not really be too sad to see the Big XII fall apart, because it’s not really that old. However, if CU left for the Pac-10 with Utah, that would be rough. CU is one of the better universities in the conference (with Texas, A&M, maybe Mizzou and Kansas). If CU left, it would be interesting to see what would happen. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a team move to the Big Ten (probably Mizzou) and the Big XII would either crumble or try to add a couple of other schools (Arkansas is a possibility, but would they leave the SEC? Maybe TCU? UH? Would 5 Texas schools be too many?) It would be a free for all.
All that being said, I don’t think the Pac 10 will be extending an offer to Utah or CU anytime soon. I know there were rumers about Texas and CU joining the Pac 10 back when the Big XII was formed. There was a series of artcles in the San Antonio newspaper about the breakup of the SWC that talked about it.
Summary
If you read the proposal, you know that I posted polls at each of the SBN blog sites. Thanks to all who’ve participated across 10 blogs, voted 410 times, and commented ! I thought this would be a great topic to blog about and I was surprised at some of the results. Like everyone, I’m happy the conference has an auto-BCS bid. But I’m frustrated by the fact that the Pac-10 has shown it cannot get two BCS bowl bids (’04 Cal, ’07 ASU). Boo hoo, right? Well, these are big bucks were talking about here. It would be nice to be able to replace the rotten wood bleachers in Memorial (or something to that effect). Moreover, the secondary bowls are terrible. The Holiday Bowl sounds corny, is pre-New Years, and gets the opportunity to play the #3 Big-12 team. And the Pac-10, in an effort to get more bowls, has settled for "meh" bowls rather than quality bowls. My goal behind the expansion was to level the playing field and to improve the Pac-10’s chances of two BCS bowl bids. I’ve posted the voting statistics below from all of the schools participating (% for / % against / total # voters):
Cal (Cal Golden Blogs): 34% / 64% / 49
Bruins Nation: (UCLA): 21% / 78 % / 185
Conquest Chronicles (USC): 23 % / 76 % / 17
ASU (House of Sparky): 47 %/ 52 % / 19
Oregon (ATQ): 22 % / 77 % / 57
Oregon St (Building the Dam): 15 % / 85 % / 40
UW (UW Dawg Pound): 50 % / 50 % / 38
Wazzou (CougCenter): 36 % / 63 % / 11
Utah (Block U): 80 % / 20 % / 30
Colorado (The Ralphie Report): 63 % / 38 % / 18
UofA (no SBN blog): N/A
‘furd (no SBN blog): N/A
=======
Total: 32 % / 68 % / 410
Throw out UCLA’s 185 votes for copying Cal’s fight song, mascot, colors, team name: 41 % / 59 % / 227
I’m kidding with the last one of course…just a little good natured ribbing. BN should be commended for having such a large blogging audience. I’ve listed some of the general comments that were received around the various blogs that participated:
1) Round Robin Scheduling/I hate changing. Wow. I never knew so many people like robins that are round. In my opinion, I don’t think the SEC/Big-12 cares about non-round robin scheduling since they usually compete for a second BCS bowl bid and they can laugh about it all the way to the bank. The round robin gives the clearest champion whereas the proposed schedule could potentially lead to a screwy system although with better football this "screwiness" could be minimal. This was by far the most common reason for opposing expansion. 11 league football games and 22 league hoops games sound like a lot. Would 11 league games + 2-3 OOC games work? If so, does this improve our BCS chances? I don’t think so. I think a lot of people love the overhyped Conference Championhsip – particularly those who vote in the polls that decide our BCS rankings.
2) Colorado wouldn’t want to/Colorado sucks at hoops/BYU and Utah instead. As the votes and comments suggested, Colorado might want to (some fans at least). Hell, they almost did in ’94 I think. The balance of power has shifted towards the Big-12S/Southwest Conference teams (just as Osborne said it would in the late ‘90s) and it doesn’t appear as it will shift significantly back. Fans should compare the revenue potential of the new Pac-12 and compare it to the revenue potential of the old Big-12, not compare current Pac-10/Big12. I realize that’s hard to do but somebody must be talented enough at business to do this.
Several fans voted for BYU and Utah instead since they offer better hoops teams and have the "Holy War" rivalry to bring. My poll question asked for Colorado and Utah, so these voting numbers don’t reflect BYU + Utah for the Pac-12 expansion. Note that my proposal protects the Holy War, it just doesn’t make it a league game. L’s still matter. This allows for Colorado and Utah to dust off their old rivalry. If BYU wants to take itself seriously, get an SBN blog and help ‘furd and ‘Zona as well.
3) Colardo/Utah don’t fit academically. Yes they do…they are better than 1/3 to 1/2 of the current universities in the Pac-10. Some Buffs fans were really offended by some of the lower Pac-10 blogs were really offended by blogger posting at academically inferior institutions. BYU is different: excellent (so they say) undergrad institution, huge endowment $, no research and no grant $. Some have said this does/does not matter.
4) Mountain West teams can’t compete with Pac-10 teams. A Utah blogger actually said this as his team is ranked #7, 2 spots behind USC and 17 spots ahead of the next Pac-10 team. I think this says something about our current ranking system!
5) Don’t conform to The Man, Screw The Man. Totally unexpected this one and it is very Berkeley. A Utah fan said he enjoys being the BCS buster and he thinks the Pac-10 should leave the BCS conference just to see what others would do. Several other fans around the Pac-10 said they’d rather fix/destroy the BCS and adopt the old version or create a playoff system. One Bruins fan had some crazy shuffling throughout the nation that lead to 7 BCS conferences comprised of 10 teams each, playing round robins, and the winners + next highest ranked team would get BCS bowls. "Fixing the current BCS" is the only thing I see coming out of these ideas mentioned as we roll into another bowl year with 3 teams undefeated…
6) I don’t want to road trip to Utah and Colorado/SLC and Denver aren’t big enough cities. Hey, people hate change. Salt Lake and Denver are major airline hubs and I’ve flown to both locales several times. Salt Lake hosted the Winter Olympics this six years ago. Denver just hosted the DNC. Pulman just hos…
7) Pac-10 teams are afraid of being less successful/losing recruits. I’m of the belief that better teams = better football = better glory. Some aren’t.
8) Are you a commish? Buffs fan? Mountain West fan? No, I’m not a commissioner, Buffs fan, nor Mountain West fan. I’m just a scientist (cue Coldplay) who solves problems for a living.
I’d like to thank everyone for participating and for making this an enjoyable experience. Thanks to all of the chief bloggers for letting a Cal fan post at their site, especially House of Sparky and The Ralphie Report for front page presence.
Two-thirds of the earth is covered by water, the other third is covered by Kotsay...in his prime...like 3 years ago.
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